First, some links. As a suggestion, avoid the responses on the links themselves. They are pretty depressing no matter which side of this issue you are on.
Hallowed Ground
Truly a mosque? (From politifact.com, one of the best sites out there for forming fact finding)
Where is the outrage now?
For those who condemn the religion of Islam and everything associated with it, (including a cultural center that includes a restraunt, retail spaces, gymnasium, and yes, a mosque... how many men, women and children have been and continue to be killed in the name of Christ? How many Christian faiths teach intolerance of different races, different beliefs, different sexual orientations? How many times is violence mentioned, advocated, and commanded by God in the Bible, the Holy Book of the Christian religion? A small percentage of the Muslim faith preaches and follows the idea of murdering infidels, and yet alarmists and hate mongers, while claiming to be followers of The Christ (He who said love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, pray for those that hurt you) would have you believe that the 33% of the world that IS Muslim wants to kills us peace loving Christians, and that we need to murder those sons of bitches before they can murder us. The words and actions of the these extremest Christians saddens and frightens me, the same as the words and actions of those extremest Muslims frightens you. But it would be ignorant and hateful of me to say that all Christians are like Timothy McVey, or David Coresh, or the Knights of the Crusades. When we let that fear overcome us, to justify our hate of our fellow man, and to oppress them and destroy them and treat them as animals, what right do we have to claim we are any better? Extremism exists in all religions, but despite what Beck or Limbaugh or Hannity of our pastor or bishop ma say to us, the vast vast majority of those of the Muslim faith do not wish us harm. If 33% of the world wanted us dead, we would be dead. It saddens me to see those claiming to follow Christ spew forth hatred on their fellow man. Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Christ never said "Love thy fellow man.. unless he is *fill in the blank*" He just said "Love thy fellow man." When we are motivated by hate and fear, we have lost, we have become like those we rage against.
And what of those who say that religion is the cause of all pain and agony in this world, and then immediately spout hatred against religion, and those that follow a religion. Again, can you not see they hypocrisy in his statement? The cause of all the pain and suffering in this world is us, the human race, and while we continue to let our fears and hatred control our actions, this world will continue to be a place where there will be pain and suffering.
Those are my musings.
For those who condemn the religion of Islam and everything associated with it, (including a cultural center that includes a restraunt, retail spaces, gymnasium, and yes, a mosque... how many men, women and children have been and continue to be killed in the name of Christ? How many Christian faiths teach intolerance of different races, different beliefs, different sexual orientations? How many times is violence mentioned, advocated, and commanded by God in the Bible, the Holy Book of the Christian religion? A small percentage of the Muslim faith preaches and follows the idea of murdering infidels, and yet alarmists and hate mongers, while claiming to be followers of The Christ (He who said love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, pray for those that hurt you) would have you believe that the 33% of the world that IS Muslim wants to kills us peace loving Christians, and that we need to murder those sons of bitches before they can murder us. The words and actions of the these extremest Christians saddens and frightens me, the same as the words and actions of those extremest Muslims frightens you. But it would be ignorant and hateful of me to say that all Christians are like Timothy McVey, or David Coresh, or the Knights of the Crusades. When we let that fear overcome us, to justify our hate of our fellow man, and to oppress them and destroy them and treat them as animals, what right do we have to claim we are any better? Extremism exists in all religions, but despite what Beck or Limbaugh or Hannity of our pastor or bishop ma say to us, the vast vast majority of those of the Muslim faith do not wish us harm. If 33% of the world wanted us dead, we would be dead. It saddens me to see those claiming to follow Christ spew forth hatred on their fellow man. Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Christ never said "Love thy fellow man.. unless he is *fill in the blank*" He just said "Love thy fellow man." When we are motivated by hate and fear, we have lost, we have become like those we rage against.
And what of those who say that religion is the cause of all pain and agony in this world, and then immediately spout hatred against religion, and those that follow a religion. Again, can you not see they hypocrisy in his statement? The cause of all the pain and suffering in this world is us, the human race, and while we continue to let our fears and hatred control our actions, this world will continue to be a place where there will be pain and suffering.
Those are my musings.
1. Thank you for inviting me
ReplyDelete2. I'm going to hold you to your commitment to avoid confrontation since I'm the gal who RUNS from confrontation!
3. I can't argue with a thing you've said. I'm especially thankful to know that we share the understanding that Muslim people are not evil people. I have personal experience with that, by the way. I've met some loving and faithful Muslim people who reached out to me when I was in an extremely dire situation.
4. Our Church Presidency says the same thing. In fact, they just clarified this contention last month on the lds.org website. I just want to say, although I have had some general run ins with some friends in the Church, I have found myself to be very pleased with what the Church Presidency has said. I find them adamant in instructing us to respect one another, preach and act in patience (and LOVE) and live a good example....and educate yourself and vote your conscience. So, though there are people who are not following their advise, dang em, I feel very comfortable in their direction and advice.
Thanks for inviting me!
....well, except that I want to say in the defense of Christian religions - there is a difference between a belief in outlined principles of faith and a hatred of others based on their beliefs or lifestyle. Let's be careful not to 'lump' any of us, Muslims or Christians. I have a definite belief in recognizing and choosing to follow the dictates of my faith and a respect for the blessings such decisions afford me and the world at large. That doesn't mean that I should hate people who choose differently. I am suppose to respect all mankind as children of God. But it does mean that I (in my belief) can and will stand up for my beliefs and for the need to recognize and follow God. I get frustrated with having my faith be accused of being hateful or intolerant. There are times stand up and declare my belief....for instance, when it affects me and my families rights and beliefs. What I will agree with you 100% is that people are taking this division too far....on both ends of the spectrum. I believe in mutual respect. I believe in coming together to work towards mutual goals and understanding. I believe in respect. I believe in civilized society, and that it IS obtainable.
ReplyDeleteI suspected my mother would agree with me on most things. She is, after all, the first political activist I ever met, and she did raise me. ;-) One point though, Mom. There is, and must be, a way to stand up for our beliefs and our right to live as we wish WITHOUT forcing others to conform to our beliefs and way of life. I will be musing on this and how it affects another issue (I am sure we can all guess which one) at a later date. But in the meantime, thank you for your comments Mom!
ReplyDeleteI'm often surprised that Christians don't mention Hitler when citing some of the stains on their own historical tapestry. I believe it can be argued that Hitler and the Nazis were just as Christian as Al Qaeda are Muslims.
ReplyDeleteThis thought should guide Christians as to how to interpret and respond to radical Muslims. Further it should inform their compassion for peaceful Muslims, for they are not pleased with the actions of the terrorists any more than we are proud of Hitler.
Also, by the way, not that the reference to David Koresh or Timothy McVeigh weren't appropriate, but I believe the stakes are higher if we label Hitler similarly--a man who perverted a peaceful faith into something destructive.
Amen ... it is sad that the choices of select radicals can put an entire group of people in a negative light. Muslim's are people just like the rest of us who want to worship as they choose and live their lives in peace. Why can't we respect eachother? I don't think thats too much to ask.
ReplyDeleteOn another not I watched a documentry called Hitler and the Occult that said Hitler wanted to create his own religion and bring back the pagan Gods. It was intersting although creepy to think what might have happened if WWII ended differently.
ReplyDeleteHey, Mikey!
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that it's a mistake to label all of a religion based on the actions and words of a few. However, I would like to note that it's particularly difficult to find many (any?) vocal christian leaders opposing the hateful rhetoric of people like Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Robertson, and others. In my opinion, such leaders are complicit in the wrongs perpetrated by others if they don't speak or act out (publicly) against those wrongs.
Since Chris has already invoked Godwin's law, I think I can safely use the NAZI comparison: Right now, we're seeing the same sorts of rhetoric spouted during the late 1920s and early 1930s. The label has changed, but the attitudes are frighteningly similar.
Godwin's law is when you compare something that isn't Hitler or Nazism to those things. I was actually talking about Hitler and Nazism. I feel compelled to point this out because I really don't like making comparisons to Nazism/Hitler.
ReplyDeleteIn response to moecleo: You may be right, but the jury's still out on whether he was a closet occultist. Either way, he did not support occultism openly. Regardless, because he was so obviously crazy/delusional/whatever, it's easy for Christians to distance themselves from Hitler. However, Hitler made it openly clear that his anti-semitism was motivated by his Christianity.
Moses
ReplyDeleteI believe you may be guilty of painting christains with the same brush we are decrying being used against muslims, athough admitidly with a much gentler stroke. It is not difficult to find christian leaders speaking out agains this type of hate. Here is a link I posted from last week
http://tinyurl.com/24zpp4o
and a few I found looking on Google for minutes
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/12/wantagh-beck/
http://tinyurl.com/yeatgol
http://tinyurl.com/2d49m5f
It's not hard my friend, if one is willing to look for ones self. It is just as inappropriate for me to tell you that you are complaicant in Chris' facial hairs' crimes against humanity because you are also a heterosexual male. Or that if a muslim person doesn't daily appologize for 9/11, they are complaicant with the actions of the terrorists. I'm not ripping my friend, only cautioning.
But speaking of Beck, I suspect that will be the subject of my next post. I find myself truly frightened by his retoric, as an american, as a mormon, and as a thinking human being. We'll see how THAT one shakes out.
I don't know what you have against my beard, but you've just broken you're own rule #2.
ReplyDeleteChris:
ReplyDeleteMy inability to grow facial hair makes me feel less masculine and insecure, and your ample beard heightens that. I retaliate by accusing your fine and upstanding growth of unspeakable horrors based only on my fears that it, by comparison to my own paltry patch, may make me less of a man. I deeply apologize my old friend, and hope that you will forgive me. I consider myself warned, by my self.
I don't know if I am cut out for this intelligent and peaceable conversation stuff. It may very well be the shortest blog in the history of blogs, ever.
LOL Apology accepted. :-)
ReplyDeleteWhat better place to get better at "intelligent and peaceable" stuff than on a forum on the web. I mean, if you can manage a rational tone in the midst of the flames of the Internet, then you can do it anywhere.
I agree with Chris. This is going to be a GREAT exercise. Can we practice the contention that emotional / political / religious differences in opinions can be discussed rationally and respectfully? This will help us, because we'll all keep an eye on each other in a positive way. Hopefully that will help move us towards being able to maintain the same decorum in everyday life. Since I claim to be a supporter of non violence and I believe that includes my words, I'm in for the challenge to see if I can stand behind that.
ReplyDeleteHang in there Mike. It's a good path.